tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post346428615722637778..comments2024-03-29T06:46:10.487-04:00Comments on Studio and Garden: Narrative and MeaningAltoon Sultanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-14713641879394915372013-10-14T21:14:23.147-04:002013-10-14T21:14:23.147-04:00Thanks for exploring your questions through exampl...Thanks for exploring your questions through examples of art down the ages. I caught your passion and love for these masterpieces. I am especially moved by the soul container.Cecelia Kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08403373465333657007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-47732131242845027072013-10-14T14:32:47.860-04:002013-10-14T14:32:47.860-04:00A painting doesn't have to have a narrative, g...A painting doesn't have to have a narrative, good or bad. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-18954962200721490512013-10-14T14:30:14.866-04:002013-10-14T14:30:14.866-04:00That's great. I've often puzzled over ill...That's great. I've often puzzled over illustration vs. art.<br /><br />Do you think it is possible for a good painting to tell a narrative badly?Erik Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11916779728004217143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-50903126909828118162013-10-14T13:56:47.354-04:002013-10-14T13:56:47.354-04:00Yes, narrative is very different from meaning; the...Yes, narrative is very different from meaning; the narrative is the story, the meaning is something much deeper; it's what we feel. For me, if an artwork successfully conveys narrative but the painting is awful, it is just illustration, not art. <br />Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-19495680675303338442013-10-14T13:13:21.273-04:002013-10-14T13:13:21.273-04:00I guess this is what you mean by "meaning&quo...I guess this is what you mean by "meaning" of the work.<br />Is meaning more than the narrative?<br />Erik Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11916779728004217143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-29331025775481355032013-10-14T13:06:52.196-04:002013-10-14T13:06:52.196-04:00Something to consider is the ability of the artwor...Something to consider is the ability of the artwork to express the meaning (or message) that it intends to convey. This is often different from the general quality of the work. For example, consider the responses to the postings of my own drawings: Some people love (or hate) a drawing for an entirely different reason from my own understanding of it. In the case of many medieval church storytelling frescoes, the narrative may be entirely clear, but the painting may be awful. Of course, a well illustrated narrative may be told in a wonderful painting, but definitely not always, in my opinion.Erik Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11916779728004217143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-16478140098004218632013-10-14T13:03:19.011-04:002013-10-14T13:03:19.011-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Erik Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11916779728004217143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-27535807612348693792013-10-13T17:40:12.640-04:002013-10-13T17:40:12.640-04:00How wonderful, Levent, that you found your place b...How wonderful, Levent, that you found your place by happenstance. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-273762021325035472013-10-13T14:56:28.188-04:002013-10-13T14:56:28.188-04:00I was once in a conservatory studying to an actor....I was once in a conservatory studying to an actor. One class mate started to mingle with a piano, and kept at it. What initially was noise, after a few months became music, I was enthralled and sad, as no such thing was happening to me; finally I understood: it was a mistake, I was in the wrong place, attempting what I had no instinct for. I did not know what to do with my life. Few years later, in an another country, by happenstance, I found my self, in a life drawing class, waiting for a friend, and was given paper and pencil, told to look and "do" To my everlasting surprise I could, I could I could "do". Forty years later; I have never stopped! I agree with you Altoon, it is "unfathomable". If you can "do" it you must, if you can see it you must. By the way, I later found out, I was tone deaf!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-22470187258202325632013-10-13T14:21:18.256-04:002013-10-13T14:21:18.256-04:00Thanks, Lori and Darryl, for your comments. I agre...Thanks, Lori and Darryl, for your comments. I agree that intended meaning is not all there is to art and that we bring meaning to our viewing as individuals. There is a mystery as to how form creates meaning, but so it does. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-37441240551123421422013-10-13T14:19:11.359-04:002013-10-13T14:19:11.359-04:00Thanks for your interesting 2 cents, Anon. Since I...Thanks for your interesting 2 cents, Anon. Since I'm interested in art, not anthropology, my context is different. And what I wrote was unfathomable was the human need to paint, not the Chauvet cave paintings. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-50550689108350823962013-10-13T12:44:56.541-04:002013-10-13T12:44:56.541-04:00Altoon, I agree with you. Every bit of meaning or...Altoon, I agree with you. Every bit of meaning or emotional content is contained in and transmitted by the form. Fra Angelica is a marvelous painter, and when one encounters his painting, most often, it's a transformative experience. The tree doesn't have to know the story or science or theory of wind to be bent by it. Layers of understanding: provenance, techniques, history, are a plus for expanding consciousness, but the essence is contained and transmitted by the form whether or not we are aware. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600191335498178978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-66532010653808550182013-10-13T10:05:03.424-04:002013-10-13T10:05:03.424-04:00Difficult question. The intended meaning may be l...Difficult question. The intended meaning may be lost without narrative or cultural context, but there is more to art. There is the meaning to each of us individually as we view a work. Art allows us to create our own narratives, though that may change once we discover the true narrative or cultural context.Lori LaBergehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07359673505050157296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-12938569966106014332013-10-13T09:36:39.485-04:002013-10-13T09:36:39.485-04:00You hit on the two "c"'s of anthropo...You hit on the two "c"'s of anthropology. culture and context, but not the third: comparison. The three together help bringing the world into focus and create a window for understanding what we cannot at first. Culture is universal, the formation of language and symbol is what we have in common. The narrative, as in the creation of a particular discourse, we cannot know unless it is given-- though the commonalities of culture, I believe, give us a deep and thick knowledge... when you say letting what speaks, speak... that is key. You know this work from the shared experience of being human. As with the Chauvet cave paintings... do you really believe they are unfathomable? I would surmise that with the mystic-centered world of our common past, you hit the nail on the head: descriptive-religious-magic. If you compare the paintings and their narratives to everyday life, I think, when we witness events: an accident, the movie letting out, strangers embracing, the context is apparent without knowing the exact narrative, Since we share the temporal and spatial we surmise and it brings us closer to what we witness--in our understanding, and we begin to create context. With art from different eras/cultures, we need to adjust the lens somewhat to focus, maybe clean it off a bit-- but we are already there; standing beside Krishna or St. James, or reaching back into those cave, where in a sense, we all come from. <br />... that's my 2 cents, anyway!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-84638924862870803652013-10-13T09:18:53.612-04:002013-10-13T09:18:53.612-04:00I appreciate your thoughts, r henry. I agree in th...I appreciate your thoughts, r henry. I agree in that we each bring our own point of view, our own character and history, to how we see. For me, there's something of trying to honor another culture by attempting to understand its art, but it's not essential in my experience of it. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-78185006501693983342013-10-13T08:46:09.317-04:002013-10-13T08:46:09.317-04:00I cannot answer that question. Except to say to ev...I cannot answer that question. Except to say to everything I give my own meaning. Though often similar, I am not the 'other'. Even 'meanings' of our own time and culture is a shaky premise. I have little ambition to understand, only to see, and act.r henry niglhttp://exoptica.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-78138579611572841812013-10-13T08:43:04.507-04:002013-10-13T08:43:04.507-04:00Thanks for this great comment, Deborah. You clearl...Thanks for this great comment, Deborah. You clearly state in a few words what I rambled on about. Altoon Sultanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16743040814034732581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658518583188826551.post-10885160072790579042013-10-13T08:35:18.408-04:002013-10-13T08:35:18.408-04:00Altoon, This is a topic I think about so much. Lik...Altoon, This is a topic I think about so much. Like you, do not hold to one dogmatic position on what is "acceptable" or "appropriate". <br /><br />I often think of what happened in the 80s around the Primitivism exhibit at MOMA that Thomas McEvilly tore apart in Artforum, criticizing the assumption that art from the non-Western cultures are presented primarily as source material for Western artists and not a valid cultural offering all their own. McEvilly is right, and in the long run his point of view won out. But like you, I am constantly inspired by work that I do not understand, that I do not have a context for, that I may or may not even want to study in more depth. It doesn't exist for my benefit, but its visual presence speaks to me nonetheless. I have gotten better at embracing the paradox, of approaching all work with respect but letting what speaks, speaks. Deborah Barlowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13152621151325407328noreply@blogger.com